Well, you misunderstood a little bit.. the PC is able to take a more complex control scheme and make it streamlined, whereas a console can't.

Mass Effect is another example of this. On the PC, with the added keys and control functionality, they could create a UI that let you switch up and use weapons/powers on the fly.

The console couldn't do this, and you had to keep pausing the action every time you wanted to select a new weapon or power. There are simply not enough buttons. They're not always extra fluff

Of course it's easier to aim with a mouse than with a pad. That's not the point. It's sure better to play driving games with a steering wheel, but Gran Turismo works with a pad as well. It'll be interesting to see what happens when things like the Wii remote gets better quality (right now it's too wonky). That'll be the day.

My point is, that the mouse aiming alone is not going to save PC shooters. It's not enough of a difference. COD4, Halo3, you name 'em. They're great games on consoles. The large amount of people that think that and buy them are a much better incentive for studios to build shooters for consoles, and avoid piracy issues, than conservative PC players. Why make a shooter for PC and sell 1M copies if you can make it for Xbox and sell 10M? And with the quality consumers expect today you really need to sell 10M copies.

I was not making a comparison between console and PC aiming, I was just arguing why it is that parts of the PC gaming arena gets less attention from major studios than they did five or ten years ago.

But I agree, it's not dying. But it's going to need to change. Which was my point.



I disagree. On a pad you have all the buttons close at hand, and if the design is good you can do lots of things way more elegantly than with a PC--for action games, mind you. Not complex games like strategy or RPGs. Try a game like Rainbow Six Las Vegas for instance. It can do very quickly everything you'd ever need from a shooter. More complex games, like RPG's or strategy games is a different kettle of fish and usually fare better on PC.

Right, and in my first post I pretty much made the concession that the control schemes for action games/FPS translate better to console controls because of their nature.

The main point I'm trying to make is that a lot of companies these days seem to want to do both a console and a PC game, and as is always the case with such things, it can only be as complex as the least-capable platform can make it. With something like action games it doesn't matter much - sure, it's easier and more precise to aim with the mouse than the gamepad stick but on the whole the control complexity is about even.

But when developers try to cross games that should be more complex, in most cases they end up "dumbing down" a PC-level game to a console-level - and this is why a lot of PC gamers who like the complex games detest consoles. The developers want more money (and who could blame them), so they cross to a console, but it always loses complexity in the process.

Plenty of examples of this, too:

- Deus Ex (pc) > Deus Ex 2 (pc+console)
- The early PC-only Rainbow 6 games to Las Vegas
- Baldur's Gate (pc) > Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance (or whatever it was called, console)
- MechWarrior games (pc) to MechAssault (console)
- Mass Effect
- C&C3
- SupCom

So on, so forth. It's not as much of an issue when a game is made for PC and then ported to console, but no console port to PC has ever brought the game up to the PC's native level of complexity (again, shooters and such obviously excluded).

Extremely complex issue, and for better or worst, that is one thing that set apart the PC gaming from console gaming.



Sadly, both casual pc gamers and old timers have become spoiled gamers. Games like Starcraft, WoW, Diablo, Age of Empires, C&C, Half-life, Civilization, etc. They are all polished and very good at what they offer. People who play those games today get used to their level of polish. A level that many new and innovative games being released simply can not match (right out in release). So IMO, its not that gamers are conservative, its that they are spoiled, and want every game to be flawless or else it sucks.



Always have been, always will be. It will never change. Most gamers will always not have high-end dream machines.

Although developers seems to have forgotten it. Crysis' devs expected people to dish out over $500 for upgrades simply to play the game.....



Now a days, this argument is stupid, on the PC, one can configure and use a controller to play a game. And I have heard that consoles like the Xbox can use a keyboard and mouse.

Either way, it does not matter at all. The control scheme issue is purely personal. Only real reason a gamer would end up using a control scheme he does not like is if the game forces it.



Ahh, one of my favorite arguments as to why PC gaming is dying.

It is true, consoles now have many features that were previously only on the pc, like internet gaming, modding, communities, etc.

BUT!!! In reality, that is not proof of PC gaming dying at all, its proof of console gaming becoming PC gaming!!!!

Just look at the price of consoles, the gap in price between a mid-range PC and a console is closing. And Sony, et al have said many times that consoles' prices are below what they really cost to make.



MechWarrior and MechAssault are completly different games. MechWarrior is a Sim, MechAssault is action shooter, completly different.

Might be time to brush up on your gaming history. Keep in mind that most innovative gameplay ideas over the past thirty years have emerged on console or arcade first. From Pong and Pac-Man through shoot-em-ups, to platformers and action/adventures and to racers and sports games. In no particular order. I would even go so far as to say that the first truly modern shooter was a console game (Goldeneye).

There was a time though, in the early nineties, when lots of good action games where released for the PC platform. Not because the platform was more apt for it, but rather because it was highly available. Now this availability has become a big liability - and a major economical concern. Once it was great that lots of people had a PC at home, now it's a problem because they are unwilling to pay for their entertainment when they can rather get it for free. The same goes for music and movies, although the vendors of those products seem to be truly clueless.

I guess the point where we have to agree to disagree, is where it comes down to whether or not complexity is innately good gameplay. I am a purist and to me Deus Ex on PC cannot hold a candle to Halo on the Xbox. Metroid Prime on the Game Cube is simply a better game than Max Payne on the PC. Half-Life may have a mildly decent story but put against Ico it's not even on the charts. Gameplay is not complexity but rather the very absence of it. Overworked controls says to me you don't really know what you're trying to do, or say.

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Strategy titles and MMO's set aside, there has not been much fun on the PC for years. I am a very old fart and you'll have to excuse me.

What is the point of these posts?

To say something is dying implies that it will eventually die.

PC gaming won't (at least not in our life-times).

End of.

This is where we agree to disagree. A lot of people prefer complexity to simplicity.

You also ignored my example of Mass Effect - do you really believe that having to pause every time you want to switch a weapon or a power is somehow better than being able to do it on the fly without interrupting the action?

As I said before, not all complexity in PC controls schemes is unnecessary fluff

Move along, these are not the posts you're looking for.



That's just poor control design and could have been done better. But the guys at BioWare work for the same company as I do. Can't really bash them in public, can I?

@Sibben71

Actually, you can bash your company in public, we don't know what your real name is, and I don't think your compan do either. Besides, SD will not be at liberty to divulge that info, so your opinion is safe with the forums.

Wait, how can piracy not affect console. You can always mod your consoles to play pirated games. Every console owner should and ought to know this. If not, then they ought to be told. It is simply not fair that only pc games get to have piracy problems.

Besides you mod a console not only to be able to play pirated games, but there other things that you can use your consoles for.

I can bash BioWare as much as I like? OMG! I'm gonna start booking their conference rooms just to screw with them.



Yes you can, but it's not very common. Most console consumers sit in front of their televison sets and can't be bothered. For better or for worse.

PC gaming is dying (albeit slowly) because PCs are to complicated for, well, many people. I find it a bit sad that the majority of casual gamers can't comprehend much more than placing a diskette into a PlayStation 3, sitting on the couch, and begin playing.

And kids think: computers? don't you have to buy them?  

labtops should never be used for a replacement of gaming desktop. In the land of desktops hardware is dirt cheap. High quality video cards like the 9600GT cost only 150bucks. Prices in all sectors have dropped to ridicolously low prices.

Only the entertainment industry could ever consider needing to make a 500% profit margin for something to be a good idea... You guys do realize that most people make cents on the dollar for their investments, and not dollars on the cents? 10% is good, 15% is great. The returns from games like Halo 3 are better than the oil companies are getting from crude oil sales right now. If the anti-capitalist assholes were paying any attention at all, they'd be going into convulsions.

I'm tired of people saying that pc gaming is dying. It is not in danger of dying soon for many reasons. One of these reasons is that pc games can be modified and edited to the point where a game is much better or completely different. For example, Oblivion is fun on both PC and Xbox 360 without mods. But when you introduce mods into the game, so many more options open up and the game is even more fun. Another good example of how PC is great is the modification of Half-Life 2 called Garrys Mod and any fan of that mod can attest to the unique ability of pc's for fans to modify games to make them even better. People that say that hardware requirements are killing the pc game market are sometimes people that don't want to devote enough time to reap the benefits of an awesome pc. Buying a prebuilt gaming rig is a mistake, and if you have enough time and patience, you can build a rig yourself for much cheaper. I have no formal experience in computers, yet I upgrade my pc all the time. Note, I don't have a laptop and in my humble opinion, if at all possible you should steer away from laptops unless space or portability is being considered. As many others have stated gaming laptops are much more expensive compared to desk tops. Also, the graphics quality of a game does not always determine how fun it is, so you don't have to invest a ton of money to enjoy fun games on the pc. All in all, the amount of time you spend, can determine what kind of gaming experience you have.

The 8800 gt is only $139, the 9600 gt is definately cheaper than $150.



That's how low all my friends are, they are all console junkies. The only PC game they love is WoW (Well that's like half of my good friends playing it). Yes, while WoW is a major addiction its turned around a couple of my friends to respect PC gaming. One has upgraded his computer with a better GPU. He doesn't even touch his PS3 anymore because he know PC gaming is better in every way. Another has bought better computer but WoW is the only pc game he plays, other than that his a console nub.

Yes kids, (and teens, well I'm still a little kid at heart even though I'm 16) need a computer. This is what my parent have thought, why buy both a mediocre computer and a mediocre console when you can invest that money into an amazing computer and play Crysis decently on high and go slug it out on 10 player, 150 planet Sins maps.

I know the person that started getting people into WoW, it may be annoying when he bother's me to join WoW when I don't want to pay for monthly subscriptions but I have to praise him for being the biggest person at school to get people to play games on a PC. While it may only be one game it could not have been a better game as its the most addicting game around and this will hoepfully lead them to play more games on a PC.

I've been a PC gamer since a was 6 or 7, playing Ages of Empire on a Windows 95. PC gaming is the best way to play and it will survive the fight against greedy corporate CEO's that seek to destroy the ensence of true gaming.

Long Live Stardock, Long Live PC gaming, Viva la PC game developers.