No, it is an induction from observed phenomenon.

What observed phenomenon? How many? How thoroughly?

While I do not deny making subjective observations of things, I couldn't say I like ice cream otherwise. I very rarely (if ever) put such things forth as though they are objective fact. If you could please show me an example...

At times I am almost objective to a fault.

One can never be too objective. However, everything you say is subjective, with your spin and wording providing your opinions.

You remind of this guy I encountered over on the amazon forums about a year ago. He believed he had discovered some sort of divine code to the bible...he was convinced the end of the world was going to begin in June or July...of last year.

He's a nutjob. If we knew when God was returning, he would be lying, for He said that He would return when He was not expected.

Read what? Reading something does not make you objective, and not hearing others opinions does not mean you will not have preconceived notions.

I read the Bible alone, by myself, before ever actually hearing it explained. That's why I have so alternative interpretations of it, because I read it without taking too much information about it and its common interpretations in. Also, I read more out of ennui than expectation, so my own "preconceived notions" are very unlikely weighing into my interpretations.

 

Beneficial mutation and heredity. Unless you are talking about abiogenesis, which isn't a part of evolution.


Yes one can. It can lead to indecisiveness or absolute detachment when such is unhealthy.


Come on, I asked for an example. Surely if everything I say is weighed down by such subjective interpretations, it can't be that hard to find one. Just because you say it doesn't make it true...and please explain how it is subjective.


By that logic, all we have to do to keep him away is be expecting him at all times. That explains why the end of the world keeps getting pushed back. People keep finding out when it is going to happen.


I seriously find that hard to believe. Of all books, no one reads the bible without preconceived notions. Perhaps if your parents and everyone you encountered for a significant moment prior were agnostics in the truest sense, then you might be able to do so. What "brought you" to it, surely it couldn't have been boredom alone?


That's what you get for using Safari.


So how can you be sure your interpretations are any more accurate?

1. But hereditary requires a source, beneficial mutation is too rare to cause separate species.
2. It is unhealthy to be detached? Indecision? What's indecision?
3. You're refusing to read the words.
4. I've considered that, but, then, you aren't seriously expecting Him, then.
5. I read it at church, sure, but I didn't really hear anything about it. I read Tolkein (LoTR, not Hobbit) by 2nd grade, so it's not that surprising, isn't it? I really started reading before I got beyond the David and Goliath collection of stories. And I read the Law more than the stories, it's what interested me more.
6. I don't have admin privileges on this Mac. I'm gonna try a live-disk on an eMac. Any warnings? Also, the go boom was actually just a result of JoeUser hiding the new comment from me.
7. Because I don't make predictions not laid in stone, letter by letter.

So are you trying to talk about abiogenesis, which isn't evolution, here?


And you know this how? Some mutations are not seen as beneficial until after they have proven useful in an unforeseen manner.


Yes, people too detached from their lives may neglect aspects of it. (Of course, that has little to do with objectivity when it has gone this far, and it is getting way off track so I am fine with discontinuing this part of the conversation if you are.)


Indecisiveness. Inability to make a decision due to not having an opinion one way or the other.


What words, you've shown me none to support your claim of my supposed chronic subjectivity.


Kind of a conundrum them, isn't it. Does it matter who is expecting him to come? I mean, what if the Protestants are expecting him soon, but the Catholics think his return is way off? Whose expectations count? With billions of people on this planet, someone is bound to be expecting him at any given time.


That's rich. So you read it alone at church by yourself? No one in church was explaining it to you? Despite being in church you had no preconceptions?


Haven't touched a Mac in about two years, and then I was only doing very basic support for them. I just can't resist a dig against a software company that claims "it just works".


The more vague the better. (Hey, that rhymed.)

1. No, but it seems unlikely that hereditary changes would have any effect on evolution.
2. Yes, but wouldn't the entire community evolve together?
3. Naah.
4. I'm opinionated enough.
5. My point exactly.
6. Ah, but take it down to the nanosecond, and there'll be a gap somewhere. I don't know when He will return, and for real believers, does it really matter.
7. Yes, I did read it alone by myself in church with no explanations. I read the Law in Children's Church. How many people wanna explain the books of the Law to second graders? Also, because I was too busy reading, I paid no attention to anything going on.
8. Lucky, lucky, lucky you.
9. Clarify your point here.

Inheritable changes are evolution.


Entire community, probably. Separate communities, not necessarily. A detrimental mutation in one community/environment could be beneficial in another.


???


I'm not, though it may seem like it sometimes.


Your lack of evidence of my subjectivity is your point? (Or is the numbering off. Quotes are you friend.)


You can hope.


Well, for all the "fake" believers, they sure seem to want him to show up soon.


Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?


I don't mind macs, its the mentality I hate.


My point is the less details a prediction has, the less likely it is to be proven/provable to be wrong; and the more likely it is to fit varying events. (i.e. More amiable to subjective interpretation.)

1. What I was talking about is that hereditary traits do not change a species.
2. True that.
3. My thoughts exactly. I think I was talking about detatchment, there.
4. You are, trust me.
5. Your words prove your subjectivity. If you don't wanna be subjective, join the government's writing classes.
6. Definitely. Though I doubt anyone sincerely believes He will return at any given time unless they're a fanatic.
7. Yep, but it's their brainlessness.
8. Yes, it sounds ridiculous, but it's true, which is stranger than fiction. I read OT first, then NT, so I learned law before learning most of the stories.
9. I hate Macs. Overpriced pieces of crap.
10. Ah, but I hate predictions amiable to subjective interpretation. There are so many Jesus prophesies that I can feel safe following Him.

And you've come by this knowledge how?


How can you disagree with 1. but not with 2.?


Your thoughts are "???"? Or that it is impossible for a person to be too attached?


Not as much as you might think. I really don't have a lot of opinions outside of that others should not try to force their opinions on anyone else or try to portray them as facts.


What, because I use "I". We are talking about different kinds of objectivity here if that is what you are talking about. In that case, the kind of objectivity you are talking about is irrelevant to a discussion. I'm talking about the ability to look at a situation or dataset from a perspective outside your direct interests. I'm talking about the ability to see both side of an argument. If your are not talking about my use of "I", "my", etc... then you really need to cite an example, otherwise you're just blowing hot air.


Did you mean "specific time" or "soon", by this statement. Who is to say what is too soon and what is too specific?


That is because it is! It doesn't matter which order you read them, you cannot possibly have entered the church, seen the decorations, the people dedicating their lives to it, the people all around in unity over it, and I am assuming your parents' following of it, and not been imprinted with some expectations.


Actually they've been reasonably priced for at least a year. They just aren't made with bottom of the barrel hardware. I wouldn't say they are the best buy out there, but it not like it used to be.


Can you tell me a specific one that hasn't been seen as happening more than once. (i.e. You can't have two anti-Christs.)

1. Hereditary=passed from parents. Which would mean no-change.
2. I'm a micro-evolutionist believer, macro-evolution remains beyond my grasp, though.
3. It's always possible for someone to be too attatched.
4. No, trust me, you are.
5. No, you speak your opinions, whether or not you are.
6. I mean any given point in time, there's no evidence.
8. My mother is Christian, my father is not. I was kind of in the "cheese!" style of church, but I read the Bible for theology. It's gotten better with age, by the way.
9. Nah, they cost too much. 5.5K OS-flexible, 16K Mac. Are you building these things for the preformance? That's from this year.
10. I've never heard of a prophecy being repeated. Never. There's too many factors in most of them. For instance, the Bible predicted Alexander the Great's destruction of the Persians.

Not if the parent was a mutant that passed the change onto their children.'


Micro is the droplet, macro is the ocean.


So why did you say "naah"?


Again, just because you say it, doesn't make it true. Without examples its just you blowing hot air.


Then how can one make any predictions.


So, your mother never passed any of her beliefs to you? You believe you arrived at all your beliefs independently? Do you think you would still be Christian if your mother was Hindu? "Cheese"?


Where are you seeing computers for 5K+? Or are you the type that thinks the 5% performance increase is worth a 500% price increase?


What I am talking about is how people thought Hitler was the anti-Christ, and who knows how many others, because they thought he (and the others) was fulfilling prophecy.

11. This thread now goes to "11"!
But seriously, its been great talking with you (I'm always up for a good conversation that isn't like talking to a wall); but I am about to head out on vacation, so this'll (probably) be my last post for a week or so. I'll try to remember to check out this thread when I get back. Until then...

Yes, because Christ left it open ended on purpose. He wanted us to live with expectation. If he had said I'll be back in 150, 275 or 2000 years, what whould that have done to our faith? We would not be living with expectancy that he required of us. That expectancy helps us to reach others because we really have no idea when he's coming back. But he did give us signs (signals) and we are seeing those more clearly than ever before in prior history.

As far as anti-christs are concerned there were to be many before he got back but there will be one who will supercede all the others in the future. Some believe he's here now. So just keep watching Israel.



well this guy discounted himself right there didn't he? That's why we are NOT to set dates because no human knows the day or the hour. See that's talk coming straight from the pit of hell. Satan is rubbing his grimy talons together when he hears one set a date and then watch it go by. Because what does that do? It affects the credibility of the Christians.



I just covered this on my blog today....heh! You know the evolution one.



of course you can. Anti means against. Why can't you have more than one? All thru the NT Christ, Paul and John warned us that there would be MANY anti-christs before he came back. Would you like scripture references? It's quite plain.

You want a good prophecy to check on? Check out Ezek 37-40 and read all about Israel coming back from the grave as if they were very very dead. Then after they were revived (1948) the nations around them (Iran among others are named) would go in as to destroy them. This is what biblical Christians are waiting for. We're watching the countries like Iran. So go ahead. Do your research and find out exactly when Ezekiel was written. (hint well before Christ). This is probably the most important prophecy to come true in our day.

And remember the thought of Israel coming into their own land to possess it was laughable in the 1800's and early 1900's. It was never going to happen.....oops! It did.

God's plan and purpose will not be stopped by man.

So, are the signs vague and susceptible to subjective interpretation or are they specific? Which one is it?



Well, he didn't say the exact day or hour. Seriously though, if the signs are becoming "clearer" as you say, how would that not mean you were able to narrow your estimates to a more precise prediction? And if the signs are getting clearer every day, surely a week before the end comes we will know.


Ok, I'll rephrase the question. How many "THE" anti-Christs? Have we had according to various believers?

Specific, but they have not all come true yet. One is peace in the Middle East.

Nope, because we don't know whether it's gonna happen rapidly, or slowly.

It depends on your interpretations. There have been countless opposers of christ, but there are disputes as to whether there will be a specific "Anti-Christ" who will be a proper, not common noun.

no the signs are not vague and are not subjective at all. If you go back and read some old commentaries, (which I have) you'd see they didn't quite understand exactly how it would all fit because history hadn't caught up with prophecy yet. Like for instance it seemed as tho Israel had to be in their own land but before 1948 it didn't seem feasible so many were thinking maybe the scripture meant something else.

When you read Matt 24 you'd see quite clearly that the signs are specific and we are seeing them. I believe all these disasters and diseases as well as the decline in morality is all part of the downward spiral of our world and put with the alignment of the countries as they should be aligned (Ezek 38-39) you really have to wonder how much longer do we really have?



well I think when the AC takes power (read Matthew 24:15) we'll have an idea it's soon. All we can see is that when it really starts to heat up, God will say enough and he will cut the days of tribulation against his people short (v22)

If you read Matt 24 side by side with Rev 6 and the first six seals you would see it sounds like we are very close. But it all has to fall in place, politically,economically, religiously, and socially and it looks like the train is fast approaching the station the way things are going.



I don't know...lots. I mean Nero was very bad. Hitler was a sort of AC. Stalin was and so on. John and Paul spoke of AC's during their days. Scripture says this about the very end tho:

"If anyone says to you "look here is the Christ or There he is! do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders so as to lead astray if possible even the elect." Matt 24:23



yes, one big event leading to the end will be a false peace in the Middle East. Look for that. Don't believe it. It's predicted to last but just a little while so the AC can get things in place.

Prophecy that is not clear until after the fact is utterly useless.