I always thought it would be interesting to find out that the devil was the one that really gave us free will, and that is what screwed up the whole deal.

Free will created evil. If it wasn't for free will, there would be no devil to give it to us. But free will demands choices, and some of those choices are going to be between good and evil. People often choose wrong. Satan chose wrong.

Evil has always been in the world, due to Satan. Free will just gave man what he needed to fall to evil.

So... Satan has free will? God gave it to him? Free will creates evil? So god created evil?

Logic!

~Zoo

Well, I am assuming a commutative trait for creation/responsibility, which could be flawed. Some would say their god created all things, which would mean it can't really be commutative since there is only one thing that creates. Of course, that would imply this god created evil and suffering too. I guess you just can't have it both ways.

Oops, replace commutative with transitive.

San Chonino posts:

I agree. God created Adam and Eve in a state of grace giving them the highest of perfections  in every way, including intelligence.  They also knew nothing of sin up until the time they disobeyed God and ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

When they sinned, they fell from this state of supernatural wealth...something we would have inherited had they not sinned....the only way we can properly understand the conditions of the human race is to understand original sin and what it took from them and how that affects us when we are born.   

Reason points always in the direction of an original and inherited moral catastrophe. Nature does not know paradox, yet we have the human paradox. We see inherent in man egotism, pride, covetnousness, and iniquity. In honesty, we can't deny sin in ourself. Man has fallen from his true place and can't recover it. What is good in him is from his Creator and what is bad is the unhappy effect of his own fall into sin.

Even though original sin was theirs alone their sin injured not only themselves, but their prosperity. Their supernatural gifts were given to them not for themselves alone, but for all those who were to come after them. If Adam and Eve had preserved these free gifts their children would have inherited them and would have come into the world in the state of supernatural grace.

But they sinned and the consequneces of their sin were/are very grave...being no longer in the state of grace, their fallen nature has passed down to their children so that all mankind are born with original sin.

The punishment of Adam and Eve reveals to us the infinite justice of God. Their sin is the sin of the whole human race and the evil consequences of their sin is passed down to all mankind. We are by birth "children of wrath". Eph. 2:3.

Sin is the greatest of all evils for all the other evils came into the world by sin. Adam and Eve having sinned through pride, were humbled by the degrading sentence: "Dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return."

San CHonino,

You are greatly mistaken if you think the sin of Adam and Eve was supposed to happen in order to produce the Atonement.

Here you are saying the sin of our first parents was NECESSARY when it clearly wasn't; rather their sin of disobedience was their own moral evil choice...after they sinned, God justly punished all involved, including satan...It's all in Genesis if you care to read it.

In His Infinite Mercy, God produced the Atonement in order to repair the sin of our first parents and of all subsequent generations by promising a Redeemer...again, this is all in Genesis.

Before Almighty God drove them out of Paradise and into the misery of the world, He promised them a Redeemer. They had condemned themselves by their sin and this thought would have driven them to utter despair had not God in His infinite mercy awakened in their hearts the hope of a coming Savior.

The curse pronounced on satan contained a consolation for fallen man. Genesis 3:15, I will put enmities between thee and the woman,..." Here, God told Adam and Eve that sin, which comes of the world, of the flesh and by the devil, would be overcome some day and that the gates of the Heaven would be opened to them.

From this moment, Adam and Eve were not eternally lost and they were not sent straight to Hell as did the fallen angels. They were not hardened in sin, but confessed their guilt and repented of it. They received pardon on account of their belief in the future Savior and on account of their repentence.

SAN CHONINO POSTS:

I can't find this anywhere...what is the Book, chapter and verse?

San Chonino posts:

Firstly, I believe God created Adam and Eve with sanctifying grace, certain perternatural gifts as freedom of pain and death, as well a high degree of intelligence and free will. It was God's will that man's destiny should be in his own hands. These gifts offered freely were provided man make correct use of his mind and will by obedience to God's command. God told threatened them with death if they disobeyed so they knew the terrible consequences if they disobeyed.

They were given everything in their favor including all the perfections of grace to succeed and remain loyal to God. In this sense, they certainly weren't MEANT to fall.

Secondly, your conclusion is erroneous becasue it's based on an incorrect presentation of the case. God didn't mean man to fall rather He gave man's destiny in his own keeping and he must attain that destiny by the virtue of God and the practice of virtue. There could be no just reward for a service of God which costs us nothing, and virtue is exercised in the midst of temptation. There is no particular virtue in being good when there is no inducement to be otherwise. The lesson we must take from the fall of Adam and Eve is towfold... that of God's Infinite justice and mercy as well as it is quite just of God to leave them/us with the opportunity of practicing true virtue in the midst of temptation, as it was merciful that forgiveness should be available for failures of which we fully repent.

God knew that they need not sin, and that His knowledge of what would eventuate did not cause or mean for them to sin.

JYTHIER POSTS:

I think your on to something here. There are many lessons to be taken from the Fall. We learn that God is Good, Just, about the evil, consequences and penalities of sin...and God's Infinite Mercy by His first promise of the Messias. God punishes sinful man in mercy, and imposes temporal punishments on him so as to save his soul and make him eternally happy.

We parents should take this lesson and apply it to our kids...just as Adam and Eve remained in control of their own destinies and they were fully responsible for their choice... God in His Mercy did grant them forgiveness of their sin, (Wisdom 10:2). But mercy itself demanded that this should be only after they had learned humility from the condequent miseries. Emotional pity and sentiment often lead us to mistake weakness for mercy. Parents who say they are too merciful to punish wrongdoing in their children are not really merciful to them at all. They are too weak to do their duty and how cruel they have really been is evident from the miserable and terribly spoiled characters of those children throughout their lives later on.





God knows what is best for the welfare of human souls, whatever their circumstances.

JYTHIER POSTS:

Sorry, you've come to the wrong conclusion.


God created the angels as pure spirits with gifts that were superior to all other created beings. Lucifer was the most beautiful, etc. They have sublime understanding, wisdom, and knowledge. God will not have any forced service and so He gave the angels the gift of free will by which they were able to choose between good and evil and could freely side with God or against Him.

When a portion of the angels made bad use of their freedom and out of pure malice and pride rebelled against God, they lost sanctifying grace, were cast into Hell, their wills are perverted and bad.

So, God didn't create evil...and He didn't create the devil.....God created all the angels including LUcifer good by nature but they became bad through their own fault.

Evil is not working together to make the world a better place.

Humans are born evil. Most stay that way.

(Jesus. Forums are seriously addictive.)

cscoles, that is exactly my opinion.