Bsmas seems to have the same train of thought that I do. I believe in God, I believe he is all powerful and I believe he created Earth and everything on it. What I find hard to believe is that people make it seem that he could do no wrong yet plenty of things on this planet exist to prove the contrary. But the truth is one can actually see it in a different light.

It has always been my belief that life is basically a test (sorta what Erath said, sorta). We were put on this planet as a test to see if we are worthy of Heaven. Life is just like school, you start with nothing and have to work to earn you A's. My point is bad things happen because it's life's way of testing who has the will to do what is right afterwards. Even handy-cap people (those who can) try to go on in life no matter their disability. Those who die in unusual ways (such as Furry's examples), maybe it was just their time and their test had ended, only God truly knows. The only reason Furry is curious about these examples (I believe) is because these "bad things" we very very terrible "bad things" that caused a lot of pain and suffering with no chance to learn from it.

But this is just my opinion.

I'm not quite sure what your belief about the reason for my 'curiosity' has to do with the issue at hand, CharlesCS. Anyway, let me reiterate the point I was trying to make. In the scenarios I describe, and countless others anyone could cite, individuals die without being 'tested', and through no fault of their own making.

Consider those who die in aeroplane crashes, earthquakes or floods. Many of them will be children, babies, perhaps as yet unborn. How were they tested?

 

The very cop-out I referred to earlier, I'm afraid. One cannot, on one hand, argue that bad things can be explained, yet on the other claim divine mystery. That's called having your cake and eating it.

If this entire planet was created for the sole reason of testing our souls then why should god bother as he will be able to figure out what each of us would do in any given situation and simply put us in the correct afterlife?

Unborn people who die because of miscarriages.  Will they passed or failed their tests when they have had no chance to do anything?

They haven't reached an age of understanding, and therefore are not held accountable. Same with 1 year olds through whatever age they are capable of understanding.



I don't consider death to be a 'bad thing' to the person who died. Everyone is going to die someday, after all. The 'bad thing' happened to the people who lived.



If it's a test, we all failed. The only one who ever 'passed' the life-test was Jesus, and that's why he's so important.

What exactly are you saying here, Jythier? It reads to me as though you're arguing that there is no explanation needed when people die in aeroplane crashes, earthquakes, floods, war, famine etc., because death is not a 'bad thing'.

Why would God allow so many people to be born, only to be subsequently wiped out without so much as a 'by your leave', and through no fault of their own? That smacks of cruelty to me.

Of course it does, if you think that this life is all there is.



The explanation is found in the survivors.

Ah, yes, but don't you like having free will? How much fun is it to make a robot to serve you, when you can have fully inteligent beings to do so?

Yes, God made Satan, but with free will, and Satan fell, just like man.

to be exact....Satan fell like lightening!

Satan wasn't created Satan (adversary) but he was created as Lucifer (a beautiful Cherub) and most likely God's head angel and pride was his downfall.

It's almost like God made him too good for his own wings.

  

I get your point but Jythier pretty much answered that for me.





I don't see it as a cop-out. I see it as we don't know, plain and simple. But if we believe in God and believe he is all mighty and all knowing, then only he knows.



Just because you know what the end result will be does not mean you will not let others reach it for themselves. The purpose is not for God to chose, it's for us to chose for ourselves.



I doin't see it that way Jythier. I don't see life as the test to be Jesus or the perfect man. I see it as being "good enough". I mean why would anyone believe in Heaven and Hell if, by your comments, we all deserve Hell? We all know that it is in our human nature to not be able to follow the word of God perfectly, so obviously God does not seek perfection, he seeks those who at least made the attempt. That is how I see it.

I thought the whole point was that god was chosing those obayed his dicats?

 

KFC- if Satan fell because he had too much pride who created him to have all that pride?

Ah, now I see where we're going! In a nutshell:

1. Good stuff:
Happens because God loves us. Because He is good.

2. Bad stuff that we can live with:
Happens because God is 'testing' us. This is a good thing. Because He is Good.

3. Bad stuff that we can't live with:
Happens because ... er, happens because ... happens, um ... look, how dare we presume to know the mind of God? Undoubtedly, He has his own reasons for doing this stuff. We don't need to question it. It must be a good thing. Because He is good.

Blazing insight on the one hand, blissful ignorance on the other - an undisputable winning position if ever I saw one.

Incidentally, if anyone is having trouble distinguishing between 2. and 3. above, I offer Victoria Wood's definition of a 'minor' ailment - a condition suffered by someone other than oneself. 

Jesus died so you can go to heaven, Charles. You cannot do it because you failed the test and deserve Hell. So the only way to heaven is to realize that you are a sinner, and that Jesus died for your sins, and rose again in order that the punishment for sin would not fall upon you. That's all you can do, man. You can't 'good enough' your way into heaven, because you're not. No-one is, except Jesus, and He was God.

If nothing bad ever happened, who would need God? If nobody could steal from you, attack you, or hurt you in any way, wouldn't you be all set on your own? Yeah, sure! And you wouldn't be able to do anything to anyone else, either. But you have the free will to cause bad things to happen to other people, and so bad things can happen to you. What that has to do with tornados? Well, nothing. Tornados are an extension of that free will to Satan, who then causes bad things to happen to people. It's not really a 'test' so much as an opportunity for growth for those who survive. For those who die, well, everyone dies, so why not have it happen now? It won't change anything to let them live longer.

Well what kind of a God would leave us here with a "good enough" mentality and not give us the parameters? How do we know when we are "good enough?" I mean did God just leave us here with "be good enough" and you can enter heaven without telling us how to do this? What if we get to the other side and God says..."sorry, you weren't good enough....to hell you go?" Here we thought we were good enough. Yikes. We miscounted our deeds somehow.

What kind of a God is that?

No, God knew we couldn't be good enough so he provided us a way thru someone who could be "good enough" to satisfy God.

Now all we have to do is accept this way knowing he paid our price for us.



You already know the answer. So who is to blame? Satan or God for creating him? Remember God created him with the ability to do just as much good as evil and there was no evil in the world to begin with.

Bad stuff happens for usually three reasons.

1. Because God is in the sanctifying business and he does put us thru testing but only what he knows we can endure.

2. Satan likes to persecute us. He pushes our buttons and tries to interfere in our lives to stop our witness. If we fall for his schemes how effective are we in our witness to the world?

3. Our own circumstances. Sometimes we suffer because of our own stupidity. We make bad choices in life and then reap the consequences. Sometimes we like to blame God for this when in fact it's our own fault we're in this place.

Going back to #1 here. Scripture tells us, that as Christians, we are God's vessels. A vessel in scripture is likened to a clay pot used for a variety of things. From a distance you cannot see what is in that clay pot. So sometimes God breaks the pot by putting us thru trials. When our pot which is our very lives get broken, what is inside spills out for the world to see. It's during these times that others can see what a real Christian is made of. Many come to a saving faith in God by seeing what spills out in another's clay pot.

"But we have this treasure (gospel)in jars of clay to show that this all surpassing power is from God and not from us. We are hard pressed on every side but not crushed, perplexed but not in despair, persecuted but not abandoned; struck down but not destroyed. We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body. So then death is at work in us, but life is at work in you." 2 Cor 4:7-12