Well shoot cuz, I'm akin to the devil then, because I'm walking away from your view of God.

Man isn't born evil. Sorry, but I don't buy that load of bollocks. I find it a tad insulting, because you know what? I'm not evil. I've dealt with "evil," as you wold put it, in the form of an completely abusive step father. There is no way, in heaven or hell that I am evil. Pure bollocks.

 

So everything is evil, eh? Your socks, your hair, the tree in your front yard? Sorry, but evil is not inherent in everything. To say that such, is (in my opinion) to not have a grip on the concept of neutral objects. A table, a chair, a tree, a bush, they're not on the same level as we are. So how can they be evil? If they were created for us, then how can they be evil, they're tools, a means of surviving.

 

 

This is Martin Luther's dark and desolate idea...he said no matter what that man can't overcome his sinfulness and that sin itself is a necessity.   

We are created in the image and likeness of God..so therefore, we can't be born evil.

 

 

 

 

 

I thought you believed in the sin nature?

I do. We are flawed pictures of God. Thank Eve for that.

Do you believe that God expected man to live like dumb, naked children in the Garden forever?

Honestly, yes, without the dumb part. They were perfectly smart, just knew nothing of sin.

Lula posts:

I'm not sure what you mean by sin nature.

I believe we are all born with the guilt and stain of original sin on our soul which we inherit from Adam and Eve. That's why Baptism is so important and why just before Christ ascended into Heaven, He gave His authority to His disciples and the command to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.. until the end of the world" St.Matt. 28:18-20.

To Catholics, Baptism is a Sacrament which cleanses us from Original Sin, makes us Christians, adopted children of God, heirs to Heaven and members of the Mystical Body of Christ, His Church.

I also believe in actual sin (mortal and venial) which we ourselves commit. Mortal sin is grevious sin against God which deprives the soul of supernatural life and deserves Hell.
Mortal sin is evil and that's why I said we are not born with mortal sin.

Eh, it's always the women that screw things up for the rest of us.  

~Zoo

Look back at that again.

Read it again.

Think about it.

...

Do you realize how much you just cheapened the role of Jesus Christ?

You just made him some back-up plan, somebody's Plan B.

It's like imagining God saying, "Oh crap, Satan totally just pulled the rug out from under me. Guess we'd better got that whole 'savior' route after all . . ."

You're giving Satan way too much credit and making God out to be kind of an imbecile.

OF COURSE Man was supposed to fall. OF COURSE HE WAS.

Thank God Eve took a bite from that fruit. Thank God Adam was smart enough to realize he should, too.

"Adam fell that man might be, and men are, that they might have joy."

I agree.

 

 

Is that why some people walk around naked, claiming that that is what G-d wanted?

Your religion is weird.

 

Not entirely. Some people are just a litle touched. Just a little. Or a lot.

Second, @ SC: No, Man was not supposed to fall, yes, Jesus was a backup plan. God really didn't wanna lose His Son, did He?

He didn't lose his son. Or do you believe that Jesus suddenly ceased to exist once he died? Because that seems to fly in the face of everything Christianity teaches.

If you believe Man was not meant to fall, that means Satan won and God lost. Thus, following that (erroneous, IMO) train of thought, you ought to be worshiping the being that even snookered God himself - Satan.

Do you see where this leads? Your belief means Satan actually screwed up the plan of God. That makes God's plan pretty not perfect.

Man was supposed to fall. He fell, just like he was supposed to. Satan didn't win, he just played his part in the essential Fall of Man.

Simple as that.

I think speculation into this point makes my head hurt.

I'm torn between thinking that God left it up to us and the reality that anyone it was left up to would have fallen, too. It's difficult to really know how this goes. I think there is an 'if' there. There were two different stories to be written - one without a fall, one with a fall.

While the non-fall plan would have been less spectacular, it would have been rewarding of its own accord - man resists the first temptation, chooses God and obedience, and lives forever in paradise with God.

The plan with the fall, we all know. Jesus comes to save us, and lays down his own life for us.

But then I look at the Bible, and Jesus said that there is no greater love than to lay down your life for your friends. Because we were not happy to be taken care of forever, our needs perpetually met and always at rest, that love was apparently not enough to win us - so God needed to show a better love to us. The best love.

I think God wanted that from the start.

I have to say, SanCho makes some interesting points.

~Zoo